Requesting feedback on very subjective word: HAZING

Dan, I plan on being back in VA next May. I'll be missing Alumnia weekend since that is a weekend for a big meet for me with customers that I support. I plan on driving across country in the Vette and spend time with friends and family across the south. So you can bet I will check it out. But I imagine if I take a seat in a pew, my yawn will still come out as it did while I was at FUMA for 4 years.

There are consequences for violating rules. These consequences often involve loss of free time or other privileges. Our environment creates discipline by spelling out clear expectations and defining clear and certain consequences for failing to meet those expectations. Punishment is not the same as discipline. Physical punishment is not a feature of the FUMA system in this day and age.

I attended FUMA from 8th-11th Grades ('60-'64.) Although I had the protection, so to speak, of the coaches since I was a track & cross country varsity athlete, that wasn't the case in Jr. School. [For the record, I didn't return for my Sr. Year cause I had a chance to go to a school overseas where my father was posted AND I did not want to spend another Monday, I think it was, standing in formation, doing endless Drill & Ceremonies, etc. I didn't realize until I entered the Army to find out that much of what FUMA had taught, e.g., certain marching maneuvers and the manual of arms had been changed or eliminated. I simply knew there had to be a better way to spend Mondays in formation all afternoon...endlessly buffing floors...or spit shining shoes. Still, I had it much better than most since I had a chance to work out after class, travel to other schools, and participate in athletic meets. Still...I wanted to spend at least one year in a public high school, although now I wished I had gone back for my senior year.]

During a reunion before he passed away, I sought out and confronted (when I knew him as) "Captain" Ozment for his form of abuse: he would grab me, a 13 yr old insecure kid, and literally shake me back n' forth, the whole room a blur, practically till my teeth rattled, and then unceremoniously drop me to the floor. I had never forgotten that so upon returning to the Academy during Alumni day, I located him at the planetarium and told him the same above story. I didn't know if I was going to punch him or just confront him. He apologized, explained at the time that he had been going through a divorce, had several boys himself, had other difficulties, but had "come to Jesus," and was apologetic. That was enough for me, but probably not for the 13 yr old still inside me as it were. (But then, I didn't have it bad as compared to one of my buddies who was molested by a long time Jr School instructor, later dismissed from the academy.)

However, believe it or not, the worst "punishment" was writing of the demerit manual while in Jr. School. I never walked upper school tours that I recall (though I probably had to do at least a couple), but WHAT A WASTE OF TIME for either. If that was the point, it was ill-taken. I don't remember the rule book although I wrote it out enough times as an 8th grader. I could have thought of a million better ways to punish cadets for demerits. Cleaning up barracks, helping in the kitchen, cleaning the jr. school grounds, etc. There had to be some more CONSTRUCTIVE punishment than copying the same rule book over...and...over...again. A pure time waster and not a very productive way, I thought as a kid, to correct one's behavior.

As far as other physical punishment, I can't say that I saw a lot. Sure, one well-know Science teacher -- who I liked -- used to squirt a "secret" liquid in your mouth for either cursing or talking in class, throw an eraser at you for a similar offense, or take his ring and rap you on the head. Still, these were inane and not really serious retorts and actually were more of a badge of honor for the cadets who suffered them than any real cruel punishment.

In the 40's (ancient history) Hazing happened but usually under controlled circumstances (Faculty officer or senior cadet Officer present). No one was allowed to really get serious about hurting or harming another cadet or the incident ended immediately. I know cause I entered the academy alone on 4 Feb 1944, the only new cadet in sight as 600 sets of eye balls locked on me at once. For the next two months I did the hazing bit untill one Night I grabbed a baseball bat and told the waiting hazer's that they would have to walk thru this swinging bat to get tome tonight. I had had enough,and the attending cadet officer (a senior captain) told everyone to leave me alone. I had learned to take up for myself.
JK Schelhammer, FUMA' 48

Gar has it right. Capt Dan has it right. I was an eternal screwup my four years there. So much so that in my senior year I was only platoon master sergeant.

But I was never subjected to hazing other than use copious amounts of wax on the hall floors when I needed an attitude adjustment.

Hazing is not tolerated at FUMA.
[...]
I'm sure there will always be the "alpha male" kind of behavior in which one guy (or group of guys) tries to mistreat others to gain status. Or some guys will accept mistreatment as the price of admission for inclusion in a group of "friends." I don't doubt that this kind of stuff happens wherever groups of guys hang out and live, at FUMA or not.
[...]
Having said that, I'm completely comfortable with you guys posting your stories of life at FUMA. I know that some of your stories reflect life in a typical male environment, and some stories even come from a different period in our time and culture. I believe it's important that prospective students and parents have a complete and thorough understanding of FUMA, past and present, before they walk through the barracks door.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.....

I'm glad to read that, Capt. Dan.

During my tenure at FUMA, there was a clearly-written no hazing policy, but administrators either looked the other way, at times, or they at least didn't look closely at what was going on in the barracks. Not many of the cadets that I knew back then truly liked the place--perhaps explaining why virtually nobody from the early/mid 1960s seems to be present here on these forums. If the place had always instilled the love of school and strong comraderie that some of the more recent grads have alluded to here, one would think that there might be more participation from all years of alumni.

About 10-15 years after I was at FUMA I happened to run into a group of Band Company cadets who were preparing to participate in a parade in Richmond. I was quite surprised to hear most of them say that they really liked the place. There had obviously been some changes made since I attended the school, and they were changes for the good.

I've read where some of the other cadets--ones who experienced some forms of hazing while they were there--said that it made them stronger. They almost seemed to be proud of the fact that they were somehow tested and passed that test. Without going into personal details, I was far more "tested" in real life before going to FUMA, and I saw (and still see) no point whatsoever in that sort of behavior. It wasn't a test ... unless the test was to see who could recognize childish behavior.

Another posting froom an former cadet said that they didn't haze...except in the case of "screw ups," and that "everyone" knew those people were screw ups. That could easily be translated into saying, "This person was someone that we could rationalize bullying, so we did that, rather than trying to help them adapt to a new and different environment."

The hazing that went on when I was there was immature and pointless. It was simply a matter of a few little boys pretending to be grown up and convincing each oither of their importance. The fact that they had "rank" gave them license to do it. The fact that they were able to rationalize it in some way allowed others to either join them or remain silent about it. (I suspect that most of those who joined in did so in order that they themselves didn't become the target of that same treatment.)

Your comments about people accepting that sort of treatment "as the price of admission" and other "Alpha male kind(s) of behavior" in an all-male environment are right on target, in my opinion. You've gotten right to the heart of the matter. I'm responding to those comments only in case some current, or future, FUMA cadet should happen to read this.

FUMA cadets shouldn't avoid participation in hazing just because it carries with it a threat of punishment (that just adds an extra challenge to it for some people). They should avoid participation in hazing because, as with any other form of bullying, it's a sign of their own weakness of character and lack of authentic leadership ability. It's immaturity and insecurity disguised as the exercise of power for a purpose that has been created out of rationalization.

Were I now in charge of cadets at FUMA, and I learned of hazing, or even excessive or inappropriate "sticking" taking place, I would neither suspend the offender nor would I necessarily have him march tours.

Instead, I'd take every stripe off his shirt or insignia of rank from his collar.

Those are, after all, nothing more than badges of leadership. Anyone who does not know how to be an authentic leader or, worse yet, has used those badges to exercise inappropriate control over another person, has forfeited the right to wear them.

It appears that the sort of hazing that existed when I attended FUMA, and before, are a thing of the past. That's wonderful to hear!

Look out now! I think Jes just went on tour!

Oh, c'mon -- the pranks were much more fun than any hazing...

So SGT. MJ. Pate's about ten rooms away, it's Sat. inspection, and rumor has it we're going to get ripped -- it's true. Pate takes almost ten min. in each room. So like I say, he's about an annex away when Pat Devine runs into my room, pulls everything out of my wall closet and throws it into the air 52-card pick-up style.

I've never spaced so many clothes so quickly.

Short-sheeted beds, sending freshman to the q.master for sleefter sheets and pefel pads; waking up at 2 AM to fill a GI can with cold water, and throw it on some sleeping soul and run; me and Skee Chinn walking around on rainy Wed. in our fatigue hats, rain capes and combat boots -- NOTHING else, giggling like idiots; running across the circle in our birthday suits @ midnight on our birthdays.... good chrikey, any others?

JBW

Most of the hazing I came across during my seven years at FUMA were in my "early years". Having to put on every stitch of clothing we had in our locker and run around the track. Sweatboxes as mentioned before, holding encyclopedias at shoulder height for an extended time. The most painful must have been when the seniors would tag you with their class rings.

"Memories are tricky things. One man's cherished memory is another man's nightmare."

I couldnt agree more with the quote above. I graduated with Daily and Winslow in 03, and i can honestly tell you that all three of us think of FUMA in completely different ways. I believe the Cadet experiance is one to be cherished, but im sure there are others out there who believe that their days at FUMA we're a waste.

As for hazing...i pledged a frat in college (a bad idea), and i know what hazing is, and i dont believe hazing was a big thing at FUMA when i was there. I heard stories of Retan hazing each other, but i dont know if they are true or not. I also once witnessed a cadet get wrapped up in a laundry bag and put into a cold shower. But it was all in fun, and the kid/victim didnt seem too upset, he would do it to someone else if he had been bigger. ANd to be honest with you, the same cadets that put him in the laundry bag protected him some 2 months later from a football player who wanted hurt him one saturday night.

I miss my FUMA days, i miss the people and to be honest, i miss the lifestyle. I miss the faculty and teachers most though. My parents never put more time into my well being then the faculty of FUMA did. Maj. B was like my mother watching out for me, and Col. Ivens was like my proverbial father; laying the hammer down whenever possible. LoL. I wonder what Maj. Friski would be in this whole family anaolgy????

Over and Out

We've heard both sides. For some it never occurred. For others, their memories of FUMA are right in-line with the first hour of FULL METAL JACKET.

I personally was not HAZED. I was disciplined a few times (and I can't really consider the beating I took from the the Band company officers and non-coms in '86 hazing) and deserved it each and every time. I didn't think so then, but I thought I knew everything back then (unlike now, where I enjoy my stupidity).

Memories are tricky things. One man's cherished memory is another man's nightmare.

At FUMA, rules actually mean something. Our system isn't perfect, none is. Our cadet leaders aren't perfect, they're still learning how to use authority.

But I have seen cadets who do anything remotely like hazing get sent home to their parents. It is not tolerated, period.

Will boys still act like boys in the barracks? Certainly. Does the occasional bullying happen? A lot less than at any other school, I'm betting. Are there fights in the barracks? Some, but definitely fewer than in most school yards across the nation.

ATTENDED FUMA IN 65 66 AND GRADUATED IN 67 IF THE 80'S CADETS ARE RETRO COOL WHAT THE 60'S GRADS? HAZING BACK THEN (WORD WASN'T IN FASHION THEN) WAS JUST PLAIN BULLYING OF NEW CADETS BY CADET LEADERS THAT THOUGHT THE WORLD REVOLVED AROUND THEM (AT FUMA IT DID) YOU LEARNED WHAT YOU NEEDED TO QUICKLY AND THEN WAITED UNTIL YOU COULD PAST YOUR KNOWLEDGE ON TO A NEW CADET. NO ONE WAS INJURED MENTALLY OR PHYSICALY I DON'T THINK AND IT DID PREPARE YOU FOR THE OUTSIDE WORLD. I LOOK BACK AT IT NOW AS SOMETHING I DID NOT ENJOY BUT THE LESSONS LEARNED MAY HAVE MADE ME A BETTER MAN. IF I HAD A SON I WOULD NOT SEND HIM THERE BUT HOPEFULLY HE WOULD NOT NEED TO GO.

BOB EVANS CLASS OF 1967

I was caught with civilian cloths locked away in the baggage room just before Thanksgiving. In those years a "star" report meant you were in big trouble. A demerit turned into a tour, which consisted of 55 minutes marching in fatigues, helment and rifle. My first impulse was to say "gun". I was ordered to report to "The Pad" asap. For three days I marched every given moment except classes, formations, mess, or sleep. Finally Sunday evening Col. Pulliam called me to his office. He told me "rest". I went to parade rest and he said "Rest" again. At that I dropped all military posture and we stood staring at each other. Tears of exhaustion and anger rolled down my cheeks. He knew he had taken me to the edge. Well a lesson well learned, and odd, in life after so many years later, I will always remember my eternal punishment. I know when things get tuff in life, that the inner spirit is strong and can carry one through
hard times. At age fifty-one now, I salute Col. Pulliam one more time with honor for instilling such a quality that will always remain with me.

Not sure. This happened back in 1986. Of course, if Colonel Pulliam were to come to my home or office and request me to comply with his order, I would still do it today. The man just commanded that much respect.

What goes on in the barracks when the faculty are not riding herd? Life, for lack of a better word. We were kids trying desperately to become men. Most of have succeeded at that, thanks to the lessons we learned at FUMA. Those who didn't achieve that all important goal simply did not try. I have to thank Jack Starry for pointing that out.

As to the hazing question, I never saw it our experienced. The closest thing was "Beat on Vakos day", but Bryan actually laughed at everyone for that and when it was done, he never complained. What I saw more of was teenage boys playing pranks, having fun and trying to be king of the hill.

I did have my bed ripped a few times, but I earned that. I had my room trashed in a search (the price for having a dope-fiend as a buddy; oddly enough I never spoke to him again after he was expelled). And I was picked out to polish the copper plumbing at the urinal once (I made the comment I was bored once during clean-up CQ; what a dumb mistake!). But I can't call that hazing. there was nothing malicious and I learned some valuable lessons from each event.

The only physical event came from Fred Hardy (he was a Cpatain then; not sure what rank he is today). I was wearing a necklace that could be seen above my collar line. He ordered me to remove it and I, being a brilliant young man of fifteen years, refused. He made me salute the wall for an hour and then took me to Colonel Pulliam, who told me to remove the necklace. I quickly snatched the offending chain from my neck when Colonel Pulliam commanded it. (That necklace never had any good results: I sold it and used the proceeds to take a college girlfriend on a date a few years later. We both ended up with food poisoning from the resturaunt we ate at.)

Hazing didn't become a looming reality until I attended college. I ended up a Sigma Nu precisely because of their no hazing policy.

I'm curious if anyone from the time I was there had a hazing experience. I would truly be shocked to learn of it.

OK, so I got an email from COL Brown at 6:02am about my last post, and I wanted to set a few things straight. The only reason the cadet in my dialogue above was a PG is that I had a specific true story in mind when writing it. I corrected from one angle, saying that PGs aren't the only ones to cause problems. I forgot to point out that, on the other end of the spectrum, there are certainly PGs who are hard-working, well-behaved, and great to be around in the barracks, classrooms, and wherever. I hope I didn't offend all you Phil Walls, John Coppers, and Darryl Blackstocks out there.

Well, PG's must have been different in other years with you fellows, than those I encountered my senior year at FUMA. I found those with whom I shared the year in B Company to be both respectfull and each handled themselves as equal members of the cadet corps.
"We" and of course I mean NCO's (I was 1st Sgt) and cadet officers were pleased that those who were in our company were the leaders of their classes and of their respected sports teams.
It was the freshmen - straight from public schools - who were the most "entertaining". PG's were aware that this one year was their chance to go far, both in academics and sports -and I believe they did their best to be good cadets and members of the "team".

CDailey03 has an excellent point. After my five years at FUMA I attended Episcopal High School in Alexandria, VA.All first year students [RATS] were subjected to hazing. These actions were encouraged by the school administration. You had to get up early to wake up the other students,had to memorize all faculty names the first week,know certain history about the school, be present at ALL functions,memorize the menu for the day, or lose your dessert,scrape and stack all of the plates at meals. Mostly menial tasks. A lot of the tasks were done as teams or groups which DID promote a VERY strong class unity. We also all had to wear "Rat Tags" until the varsity football team won their first home game. GO TEAM ,right?

Blue Skies

It seems that I have entered this thread too late. This, like so many internet flame wars, ended whatever useful or enlightening discussion would have otherwise been. That said...

Before I get started, I should point out that I'm currently a plebe at the Naval Academy, just so you know my point of view and so that no one tries to tell me that I don't know what hazing is because I wasn't at fuma "back in the day."

Hazing, while I was there, simply wasn't. I got stuck for calling stupid one of the guys in my squad. MY squad! There really is no hazing at FUMA, which is, honestly, something that I always somewhat lamented. I had read Lords of Discipline and A Sense of Honor and all those books about military school before I went, and I was expecting some serious hardship. I got no hardship whatsoever. I never really felt challenged at FUMA; at the most, I was irritated by the restrictive rules designed to keep disorderly PGs and would-be dropouts in check. If I had my way, I'd scrap the Officer Training program (which isn't really Officer Training) and implement a sort of RAT week or Plebe week or Knob week or whatever. FUMA isn't the kind of place to have a whole summer devoted to breaking you like VMI or The Citadel or the Academies, but there'd be a greater sense of Class Unity (or whatever passes for it) and the uniform would mean something. I always thought the place could be at least a little harder; I wanted to have a year of trial rather than four years of whatever. This way, there could be hazing restricted by clear regulations. Officer Training should consist of what makes a leader and how to train, not romping through the forest wearing kevlar.

The take-home points here are that hazing isn't necessarily a bad thing if regulated, and a RAT program (or whatever you want to call it) would improve the school.

Hey, I'm a Hatcher Hall admin guy. I wouldn't know how to do a proper uniform inspection!
:D

This degraded from a legitamate topic to what will soon be a name calling contest. eStreet is right, READ before you write.

"Sticks and stones"........................

Blue Skies

Ok, guys.

Try not to take comments made here as a personal challenge. Since the subject of hazing is the kind of thing that sets the hairs on the back of my neck on edge as a staff member at an all-male military school, I can appreciate that we can feel a bit defensive when discussing this subject. Alums are very protective of FUMA's reputation, generally speaking (thanks for that!).

I am very pleased to have an open and honest discussion about experiences at FUMA, both good and bad, that are accurate and honest. We work to eliminate the bad stuff and we try to improve on the positive stuff. Thanks to all of you for helping make that happen! Good job, guys!